The Pigloo Forums

Lady Chutterly · Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 832 Location: TN

After cleaning her cage yesterday, we put Ginger back and she went to her "pee corner" and urinated fresh red blood. The vet got us in within an hour. She hasn't been squealing with urination, hasn't lost weight, has been eating, drinking, zooming and pooping normally.

The vet said her bladder was tender, but she felt no palpable stones. We put her on Baytril and I'm going to try to get a urine sample today.

CF#5 · Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject:

x-ray

JaneDoe · Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:48 pm Post subject:

If I'm correct, sows don't get stones often. Pandora had three UTI's last year, got over all of them fine. Good luck.

CF#5 · Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:00 am Post subject:

They get stones probably almost as frequently as males, but they can often pass them without incident, so surgery isn't always needed. I've had three female pigs with stones at one time or another that we knew about.

Peeing blood can be a sign of stones, UTI or other infection, tumor (not necessarily cancerous), or some other condition. X-rays are critical and ultrasound is often useful as well.

JaneDoe · Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:24 am Post subject:

I didn't know that, CF. Thanks.

Lady Chutterly · Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 832 Location: TN

They're running a urinalysis today. If they see crystals they'll do an X-ray. Vet said she didn't feel a tumor, but I'll ask about ultrasound, too. It's a good thing Ginger loves the taste of Baytril!

CF#5 · Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:08 pm Post subject:

Tumors are only palpable once they've grown to a moderate size. They can be caught much earlier on ultrasound. The most common type is a growth inside the uterus, which if caught early, can be eliminated by a routine spay.

Lack of crystals in the urine won't necessarily rule out stones. There could be one large stone that does not have any tiny particles breaking off, so there wouldn't be any crystals in the output. Such a stone would cause significant pain and discomfort in the bladder, leading to irritation and abrasions on the inner bladder walls, which if severe, could cause a ton of bleeding, like you've described.

I would definitely have at least an x-ray done regardless of what's found in the urine, or if there's a good place to have an ultrasound done with an experienced vet who knows specifically what to look for, do that first, which will probably make the x-ray unnecessary. She definitely needs at least one or the other.

Lady Chutterly · Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 832 Location: TN

I will definitely pursue the ultrasound. For myself I prefer ultrasound to x-ray, and I imagine my reasons hold up even better for a smaller body like hers.

The bleeding has stopped entirely now. They didn't find anything in the urinalysis except low vitamin C. I've been very rigorous in watching the girls' diet, but will boost the C-foods even more. I do NOT want to go the "drops in the water" route because one of my girls will not touch treated water.

CF#5 · Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:05 pm Post subject:

A one-square inch slice of red or yellow pepper every day should help with vitamin C. You can also supplement it in liquid form from a pharmacy. You may need a prescription. It's stupid, since it's just vitamin C, but you can still get it. Any compounding pharmacy won't have any problem making it. But don't supplement more than 30-60mg per day since there might be stones involved. Too much vitamin C makes the bladder acidic, which creates an environment that helps stones and crystals form.

I've pretty much taken my pigs off pellets almost entirely, so they get all their vitamin C from vegetables, and they're fine. I feed them red/yellow/orange pepper, green leaf lettuce, and cilantro almost exclusively, with occasional red leaf, romaine, parsley, and carrots. But I've found that feeding just enough peppers to meet their vitamin C needs combined with a ton of green leaf lettuce/cilantro works best for both preventing stones and optimal health. Everything else in moderate amounts at most.

JaneDoe · Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:24 am Post subject:

How is she today?

My vet recommended something called RX Choice. You can get it through Amazon.com and the pigs go after it like junkies.

Lady Chutterly · Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 832 Location: TN

CF#5, I'm very interested in hearing why you've stopped pellets. Did you post that somewhere? JaneDoe, she's better. Not a drop of blood for two days. The vet said there was a small bacterial load in the urine she tested. I think it probably was a UTI and we caught it early. We have an ultrasound scheduled for early next week.

I spoke at length with the vet. The dipstick test they did on her urine tested her pH level, not vitamin C level. Her pH was 8.5, which is why they thought she was vitamin C deficient. I have some liquid C I'm going to try. My plan is to squirt their leafies with some and see if they will eat it. It doesn't have sugar or glycerine (the two main components I was concerned about in people liquids) or flavorings and fillers (the things I dislike in crushed pills). Since it only takes .5cc to get 30mg and they eat a good quantity of leafies, I doubt they'll object. I do NOT want to put it in their water because they are water snobs and will just stop drinking. I've witnessed this myself. Interesting aside: we have three "types" of water in our house: tap, charcoal filtered and reverse osmosis. They will turn up their noses at tap and reverse osmosis water, but will drink the sink-filtered water in great abundance. Huh.

Now that it is "off season" for a lot of those leafies here, I have been purchasing storebought organic. But with many of the greens coming from California or Holland (HOLLAND??) I'm willing to bet that much of the vitamin C is gone after such a long transit time. My own garden will be up and producing in 6 weeks, but in the meantime I'll be buying up whatever is available at the Farmer's Market.

I must be more vigilant about their diet. Our family is eating 98% seasonally and locally, but we're not as delicate as the piggies. I'm putting a note in my computer right now that when greens leave the farmer's market I must set up my indoor greenhouse for piggy greens.

CF#5 · Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:08 pm Post subject:

They stopped getting pellets because Frostie has what would probably be considered a "glandular disorder" in a fat human. Or maybe she just REALLY likes to eat constantly. So after a battle with what could be considered a mild yet persistent case of bumblefoot, we decided she had to lose weight. Everyone here goes crazy if they're separated, even with a simple divider, so that wasn't an option. Everyone had to lose the pellets. The other pigs have adjusted and everyone is great. Overall health for everyone has probably increased. I still give them one dish of pellets each about once a month, more as a treat than anything else. They'll eat any pellets I give them, but their favorite is Cavy Cuisine. They like the new Oxbow organic pellets and KM pellets about equally. I typically only give them the organic ones now, and hardly ever.

There's no need to spray lettuce with liquid vitamin C. At 60mg/cc you can easily take 0.5cc of the liquid and stick it directly in the mouth and shoot. This will help guarantee that you know exactly how much is consumed. I'd only give that much for a few days, then 0.3cc every day after that. I'm not sure if a urine pH test is a failsafe method to diagnose vitamin C deficiency, but after any potential deficiency is reversed, 15-20mg a day is plenty for an otherwise healthy pig.

It's a good idea to get your pigs used to syringes by giving them simethicone often. My pigs think it's liquid candy. I especially give it to them before or after big meals when they look a little uncomfortable, and definitely more frequently when they have access to pellets. It's never good to eat too many pellets right before or right after a big plate of fresh vegetables. Even when they have pellets, I typically take them away for two hours before and two hours after each meal, but sometimes I forget, so simethicone keeps bloating to a minimum. I certainly don't give it to them every day, and sometimes they can go 2-3 weeks without any simethicone at all, but it's very safe. 0.3cc (20mg) every 12 hours can only help an adult guinea pig. There are never any side effects or drawbacks. I wouldn't give more than that unless I had a really good reason. Babies are less likely to need it, and less likely to need the full dose if they do.

JaneDoe · Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:37 am Post subject:

Yay! Let's hope she continues to do better. Pandora did.

Lady Chutterly · Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 832 Location: TN

Fascinating, CS#5! I had been feeling a tad guilty about reducing the pigs' pellet intake to an eighth cup every other day, so it's comforting to know I'm probably not doing them any harm. Of all we've tried, they seem to prefer the Oxbow organic. Not mixing them with greens seems like sound advice. Seems to me the digestive processes for the two types of different food might be very different and one food might sit, fermenting the in the gut, while the other moves through. Seems a sure recipe for bloat.

I'm not sure that urine pH is a totally accurate indicator of C level, either. Seems to me there are many things that could affect urine pH, C level being one.

Ginger is a thinner pig, 2 pounds 4 ounces at age 3, so I'm not really concerned about overweight in her case. Chutt Chutt is larger, almost 3 pounds at age 3 1/2. But neither seem to be hindered by weight, they both zoom often. No one has jumped on top of the pigloo for ages, but I'll occasionally put a treat up there and they have no trouble finding it and getting it.

CF#5 · Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject:

Pellets fermenting isn't something I'd thought of, but I'm definitely not able to rule it out. I've always compared mixing pellets with vegetables to feeding raw rice to a fish. Once the rice is inside the fish, it will expand, causing severe bloat. Pellets also expand in volume when exposed to water, and vegetables are more than 90% water. So a pig is more prone to overeat when consuming pellets immediately after eating a huge plate of vegetables.

Frostie's highest weight ever was 1587, and she was routinely around 1500-1550 when bumblefoot started. She dipped down as low as 1305 after having pellets taken away, but she was more typically around 1350. Everyone has gained weight over the last few weeks, and now she's back up around 1410. They love KM 3rd cut. It's so good that Cinnamon sometimes would rather eat hay than fresh lettuce.

Lady Chutterly · Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 832 Location: TN

Ah we love KM 3rd also. They really like 2nd but 3rd is like heaven.

Have you ever grown wheatgrass for your piggies? In the off season I've been growing a small pie plate full and trimming it a couple times a week. They get maybe 1/8 cup, but seem to enjoy it. I'm sure they are looking forward to forage season as much as I am!

CF#5 · Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:46 am Post subject:

I've grown it plenty of times, but the blades come out so thin, and I've never had good luck getting it to grow back after it's been cut or eaten the first time. It's easier to just buy a big huge tray of grass from the juice bars around here, usually $15-20. My pigs haven't had any in a while.

Lady Chutterly · Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 832 Location: TN

Well, it's back. Once again, x-rays and ultrasounds are negative. Her C level is fine this time, too. The vet is totally stumped. She's eating, drinking, peeing and pooping normally and in fine spirits.

JaneDoe · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:31 am Post subject:

Sorry, can't offer much more than good thoughts :s

CF, I was looking at the picture of Frostie and the others. They look good.

SandyF · Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 109 Location: Hoosierville, USA

Just catching up on some earlier threads, and was wondering how Ginger is doing.

Lady Chutterly · Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 832 Location: TN

The blood in her urine is still intermittent. She'll go weeks being just fine, then have one day where she passes blood. We continue to watch her very carefully for other signs of illness but there aren't any. I do NOT want to just pass it off as "one of those things" because it's not normal, it's a big old warning sign. But all the tests we've done have been normal, all the x-rays, everything.

SandyF · Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 109 Location: Hoosierville, USA

Very frustrating, I'm sure. And no sludge, right? Sounds like this could fall into the category of idiopathic cystitis, which isn't really a diagnosis of course, but a sort of catch-all for any recurring, unexplained bleeding.

Are you still feeding Bene-Terra? Have you ever tried Kleenmama's pellets?

Sending good thoughts Ginger's way.

JaneDoe · Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:23 am Post subject:

Pandora was the only one of my pigs to have those issues. Healing thoughts her way.

Bride of Chad · Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:24 pm Post subject:

Hugs to Ginger (and her mama), and healing thoughts as well! :)

Lady Chutterly · Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 832 Location: TN

I have tried Kleenmama's pellets, and usually feed those when I place a hay order. But because they lose their C so quickly after opening, I don't order those in bulk the way I do hay. I can get Oxbow's at the corner so I don't run out.

Thanks, all for the good thoughts. And hugs right back atcha, BoC!